Open Forum

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

When I spoke to ASCAP a while back, when my community theatre group was getting signed up with them to play preshow, intermission, and lobby music, they indicated that as far as they knew, anything used IN a show, or coming from another show (to be used in a show) had to be licensed individually by the rights holders. So, I took that to mean that if I wanted to do a showcase like you're suggesting, that I had to get individual rights from each of the folks who held the full rights to the shows. 


------------------------------
Jared Wright
Thomaston GA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

Original Message------

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

There is a difference between songs from musicals, which are often controlled by the publisher of the musical in the context of the larger whole, but through ASCAP/BMI as individual pieces when not performed in a dramatic context. MTI has a helpful article about this issue here, which explains the difference between Grand Rights and Small Rights:
http://www.mtishows.com/dos-and-donts-of-licensing

Keep in mind that just because people do it doesn't make it legal. In many (most?) cases, they simply may not have gotten caught.

In the case of non-musical works, which are typically wholly controlled/licensed by a single publisher, if you're performing it on a stage in front of an audience and it's under copyright, you need to get permission. While an admission charge is not the determining factors for royalties (a common misconception), to me it certainly feels more egregious if someone is using it to make money and not paying the creators of the work.

For instance, let's say that someone decided to do a "Neil Simon showcase." They're doing 5 minutes each from a whole group of his plays and charging $15 a ticket for people to come see it. Let's say they sell 100 tickets. So they've made $1500 on what is essentially a full-length play by Neil Simon, and the guy who wrote everything they're doing gets nothing? No.

Unless the publisher has a standing policy on it that is listed somewhere, you have to ask.

Cheers,
Jonathan

------------------------------
Jonathan Dorf
Playwright/ Co-founder of YouthPLAYS/ Co-chair of The Alliance Of Los Angeles Playwrights
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 08:41
From: Kim Silverman
Subject: Another rights question

In my many years of Community Theatre, and my many visits of High School Showcases, there is not royalty involved when using different songs from different musicals or even single songs. This is why many organizations do "Variety Shows" usually with a theme, so they can get some good money in their pockets! HHOpe this helps!

 

Kim Silverman

Theatre Dept. Chair

ESL

The Grier School

2522 Grier School Road

Tyrone, PA 16686

 

For an answer to this question, I sought the help of our K-12 Licensing Rep, Sarah Weber.  She responded as follows -

It is possible to do an evening of scenes and songs from different shows. However, you have to obtain approval from every playwright who will be represented in the showcase. For example, let's say you want to use short scenes from five different plays. You would have to apply for each play separately and ask for permission to present one scene in a showcase. This works similarly if you want to use different songs for a showcase. It's important to keep in mind that not all authors will approve scene-only performances, so it'll be in your colleague's best interest to have multiple options. That being said, when putting together a showcase it is traditionally easier to obtain permission to use a selection of short plays either by the same playwright or within a set collection, such as Thornton Wilder's One Act Series or the Keen Teens volumes.

Hope this helps!
Abbie

------------------------------
Abbie Van Nostrand
Director of Corporate Communications
Samuel French, Inc.
New York NY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 10:12
From: Jonathan Dorf
Subject: Another rights question

There is a difference between songs from musicals, which are often controlled by the publisher of the musical in the context of the larger whole, but through ASCAP/BMI as individual pieces when not performed in a dramatic context. MTI has a helpful article about this issue here, which explains the difference between Grand Rights and Small Rights:
http://www.mtishows.com/dos-and-donts-of-licensing

Keep in mind that just because people do it doesn't make it legal. In many (most?) cases, they simply may not have gotten caught.

In the case of non-musical works, which are typically wholly controlled/licensed by a single publisher, if you're performing it on a stage in front of an audience and it's under copyright, you need to get permission. While an admission charge is not the determining factors for royalties (a common misconception), to me it certainly feels more egregious if someone is using it to make money and not paying the creators of the work.

For instance, let's say that someone decided to do a "Neil Simon showcase." They're doing 5 minutes each from a whole group of his plays and charging $15 a ticket for people to come see it. Let's say they sell 100 tickets. So they've made $1500 on what is essentially a full-length play by Neil Simon, and the guy who wrote everything they're doing gets nothing? No.

Unless the publisher has a standing policy on it that is listed somewhere, you have to ask.

Cheers,
Jonathan

------------------------------
Jonathan Dorf
Playwright/ Co-founder of YouthPLAYS/ Co-chair of The Alliance Of Los Angeles Playwrights
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 08:41
From: Kim Silverman
Subject: Another rights question

In my many years of Community Theatre, and my many visits of High School Showcases, there is not royalty involved when using different songs from different musicals or even single songs. This is why many organizations do "Variety Shows" usually with a theme, so they can get some good money in their pockets! HHOpe this helps!

 

Kim Silverman

Theatre Dept. Chair

ESL

The Grier School

2522 Grier School Road

Tyrone, PA 16686

 

This can get a lil messy.  As far as I know, there is always a royalty involved when you are charging money for a public performance.  Of all the major theater lisencing groups, R&H Theatricals is the only one I know of that makes it straightforward in getting the royalties for specific songs.  As far as getting the rights to scenes or cuttings, most publishers don't make that sort of accomidation.  You have to buy the whole show.  

Your friend might want to look into Tresona, which serves as a clearing house for the major musical publishers.  Our chorus teachers use it when they make custom arrangements for their show choir sets, but they also help get the rights to complete songs. 

Good luck.  And let your friend know that if he can't get the rights, don't do the show.  That is a giant lawsuit just waiting to happen.


------------------------------
Robert Ellis
Theater I-IV Honors
Performing Arts Department Lead
Cosby High School
Midlothian, VA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

I always recommend to do a showcase that is available for licensing already if someone wants to do a performance of this nature. There are quite a few out there that you can get the rights for through company's like Theatrical Rights and MTI. Don't "create" one. They already exist and have royalties associated with them.

------------------------------
Shira Schwartz
Chandler Unified School District
Chandler AZ
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 09:57
From: Robert Ellis
Subject: Another rights question

This can get a lil messy.  As far as I know, there is always a royalty involved when you are charging money for a public performance.  Of all the major theater lisencing groups, R&H Theatricals is the only one I know of that makes it straightforward in getting the royalties for specific songs.  As far as getting the rights to scenes or cuttings, most publishers don't make that sort of accomidation.  You have to buy the whole show.  

Your friend might want to look into Tresona, which serves as a clearing house for the major musical publishers.  Our chorus teachers use it when they make custom arrangements for their show choir sets, but they also help get the rights to complete songs. 

Good luck.  And let your friend know that if he can't get the rights, don't do the show.  That is a giant lawsuit just waiting to happen.


------------------------------
Robert Ellis
Theater I-IV Honors
Performing Arts Department Lead
Cosby High School
Midlothian, VA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

Shira's idea is a much better one--by picking an existing revue, the rights issue is solved.

I wanted to pull out a paragraph from the MTI article which specifically addresses the issue of revues:

On a related topic, MTI is occasionally approached by a group looking either to a) create a revue based on a composer's body of work, or around a theme (e.g., "love songs") or b) take existing songs from shows and put them into a new dramatic context. Neither of these examples would be covered under a "small rights" license since their thematic nature or imposed story line would create what is considered a "dramatico-musical work" under federal copyright law. Generally, these types of requests must be denied due to the complex issues surrounding "merged works" (musicals where collaborators, estates, trustees, producers, etc. all share in the royalty pool). 

Cheers,
Jonathan

------------------------------
Jonathan Dorf
Playwright/ Co-founder of YouthPLAYS/ Co-chair of The Alliance Of Los Angeles Playwrights
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 10:38
From: Shira Schwartz
Subject: Another rights question

I always recommend to do a showcase that is available for licensing already if someone wants to do a performance of this nature. There are quite a few out there that you can get the rights for through company's like Theatrical Rights and MTI. Don't "create" one. They already exist and have royalties associated with them.

------------------------------
Shira Schwartz
Chandler Unified School District
Chandler AZ
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 09:57
From: Robert Ellis
Subject: Another rights question

This can get a lil messy.  As far as I know, there is always a royalty involved when you are charging money for a public performance.  Of all the major theater lisencing groups, R&H Theatricals is the only one I know of that makes it straightforward in getting the royalties for specific songs.  As far as getting the rights to scenes or cuttings, most publishers don't make that sort of accomidation.  You have to buy the whole show.  

Your friend might want to look into Tresona, which serves as a clearing house for the major musical publishers.  Our chorus teachers use it when they make custom arrangements for their show choir sets, but they also help get the rights to complete songs. 

Good luck.  And let your friend know that if he can't get the rights, don't do the show.  That is a giant lawsuit just waiting to happen.


------------------------------
Robert Ellis
Theater I-IV Honors
Performing Arts Department Lead
Cosby High School
Midlothian, VA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

These are some great responses, and thank to all for their time and thoughts.

Since my original post I also called a rep at Samuel French, to ask. She was very helpful, and basically said that one would apply for rights to present an excerpt in the same way you would apply for the full show, and then follow up with an email clarifying the specific cutting requested and the reason for the request. This often results in getting a reduced royalty rate for the cutting.

At Sam French, that royalty can be as low as $45 (though, interestingly, she specifically cited Neil Simon's work as being significantly more expensive - maybe because his plays lend themselves so easily to this type of 'scene night' usage). She also hastened to say that this procedure is specific to Samuel French, and that she could not speak to how other publishing houses would handle such requests, if at all.

In the end, yes. Rights must be paid (hopefully we all assumed this to be true), and it seems the best way to handle it - at least for non-musical requests - is to contact the publishing house directly to ask their preferences,

Addendum: The Sam French rep emailed me an article/brochure on intellectual property, which puts the issue (and why it's important) into simple words. I might use it the next time I teach an intellectual-property unit, and I'm sharing it here (with permission) for anyone else who would like to consider doing the same.

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

To speak to Kim's assertion (post above) regarding royalty-free revues of your own creation: ASCAP/BMI/SESAC have jurisdiction over small rights concert/revues. And in the case of accredited schools --- to my knowledge --- they do not charge a royalty. Whether they go through the motions and issue an Agreement with no fees due is another question (I would guess they do not).

But keep in mind that small rights can't tread into grand rights territory: the revue must be a vocal/concert performance with no dramatic elements (without costumes, choreo, dialog, characters, etc.). Once you add drama, you fall into grand rights domain and your odds of receiving permission are, shall we say, dramatically reduced. Exceptions are often made for festival and competition, of course.

Although the small rights agencies currently (I do not speak for them, so please check before proceeding) do not apply a royalty for self-created revues at accredited schools, to my knowledge the same can NOT be said for any other group/community theater. I would assume that at the very least a cabaret license would be necessary. And the same 'drama' prohibition remains, which I would think could be hard for some groups to resist (especially if they have presented the show in the past). Adding scenes, choero...or trying to link the songs together with some sort of plot and character development is enticing...and a grand right. 


------------------------------
Michael McDonough
TRW Director of Amateur Licensing
New York
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-13-2017 12:15
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

These are some great responses, and thank to all for their time and thoughts.

Since my original post I also called a rep at Samuel French, to ask. She was very helpful, and basically said that one would apply for rights to present an excerpt in the same way you would apply for the full show, and then follow up with an email clarifying the specific cutting requested and the reason for the request. This often results in getting a reduced royalty rate for the cutting.

At Sam French, that royalty can be as low as $45 (though, interestingly, she specifically cited Neil Simon's work as being significantly more expensive - maybe because his plays lend themselves so easily to this type of 'scene night' usage). She also hastened to say that this procedure is specific to Samuel French, and that she could not speak to how other publishing houses would handle such requests, if at all.

In the end, yes. Rights must be paid (hopefully we all assumed this to be true), and it seems the best way to handle it - at least for non-musical requests - is to contact the publishing house directly to ask their preferences,

Addendum: The Sam French rep emailed me an article/brochure on intellectual property, which puts the issue (and why it's important) into simple words. I might use it the next time I teach an intellectual-property unit, and I'm sharing it here (with permission) for anyone else who would like to consider doing the same.

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2017 15:43
From: Josh Kauffman
Subject: Another rights question

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere on this board, but I've not found it and am not sure what sort of search string to use, so pardon me for beating what may be a long-dead horse.

A colleague of mine at a nearby school is wanting to present a showcase that includes scenes and songs from various plays and musicals, and has asked me what would be necessary for licensing. I'm not even sure such a thing is possible without jumping through a long series of hoops, but I'm hoping, for her sake (and perhaps someday for mine) that it is. I know such showcases are done, but I don't know how many of them are done legally.
  
I've been doing reading on 'grand rights' and 'small rights,' which seems to cover songs but not scenes (and doesn't seem promising for someone wanting to use songs in a showcase), and I have not found any resources to address the question of presenting a cutting from a play in a showcase.

Anyone have any answers, here?

------------------------------
Josh Kauffman
Teacher
Winfield AL
------------------------------