Open Forum

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion. 

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

I personally don't think it would be unless you copied the items directly, if you did something similar  in the style that would be like painting a picture similar to a Picasso; unless you use the character or exact representation there may be issues, I have taken inspiration from many shows and sources over the years but added my own creativity to it to make it mine, seeing how it is done and making it work similar are part of your creativity.

------------------------------
Jerry Onik
V.P. Theatrical Supplies and Equipment
Omaha NE
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

While drawing inspiration from a production is legitimate, Julie Taylor inspires me with everything she does, my concern would be cultural appropriation. JT used traditional African crafts in her costumes and African musicians wrote and performed the music. I would tread lightly in using the same techniques. Masks and puppets are some of our tools of the trade in theatre but to use culturally specific forms without the support of those cultures has the air of white-privilege and colonialism. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but it is an issue I think we need to start considering.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

Absolutely agree with cultural appropriation!  My example/connection was just a poor one. I am actually stuck on the the production of "Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe", written, composed, and directed by Jonathan Christenson, and designed by Bretta Gerecke. I have become obsessed with the powerful use of music and unique gothic costumes of this show, but the vocal requirements are very difficult, operatic in style, and something that I do not see in even my most talented group of students' future (small school, small talent pool, and I am already stretched way thin on instruction time).  Do you think it would be appropriate or permissible to apply the stylization of this show, using similar but original compositions of music as underscoring and similar styled costumes, to another one of the many Poe productions, non musicals, that exist out there? 

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 06:48
From: John Perry
Subject: Infringement question

While drawing inspiration from a production is legitimate, Julie Taylor inspires me with everything she does, my concern would be cultural appropriation. JT used traditional African crafts in her costumes and African musicians wrote and performed the music. I would tread lightly in using the same techniques. Masks and puppets are some of our tools of the trade in theatre but to use culturally specific forms without the support of those cultures has the air of white-privilege and colonialism. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but it is an issue I think we need to start considering.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

It is sad in theatre that we cannot explore other cultures because it might seem cultural appropriation. When I was a grad student (oh so many years ago) I directed a children's play based on Native American legends. I am a white director and the writer of the piece was also white. 

I wanted to cast as many Native American's as possible, but only a handful showed up. I cast them all regardless of talent level. I had to fill in the rest of the cast with Hispanic and Anglo actors. The lead was an Anglo boy who was an award winning dancer of Native American dances, which he learned as a boy scout. 

Today, I am sure I would be advise to choose another show. But when that happens, the stories don't get told. The culture doesn't get appropriated, but neither does it get celebrated. We are burying cultures in cultural sensitivity. Oh we can experience other cultures, but only as a spectator; patrons viewing creatures in a menagerie.

We bring teachers of African American dance to our festivals (Huzzah to Mama Ye Ye), but don't put it on stage because it's cultural appropriation? Beggars logic. Where's the line? Is the use of African or Australian Aboriginal prints for costumes in Seussical cultural appropriation? Japanese influences for sets, props and costumes in the Mikado? 

Do we ignore the cultural references in a script? Or choose another script? Do we censor our own inspiration and influences from another culture? 

Is there not a way to celebrate other cultures, while still being sensitive. I am so very white, so this next statement may seem out of line. But it seems as if there are too many people just waiting to be offended, so it is easier to just ovoid it altogether and avoid stepping on a land mine of cultural insensitivity. 

The sad result is that other cultural become taboo and it is safer to just avoid them.




------------------------------
James Van Leishout
Olympia WA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 08:18
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Absolutely agree with cultural appropriation!  My example/connection was just a poor one. I am actually stuck on the the production of "Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe", written, composed, and directed by Jonathan Christenson, and designed by Bretta Gerecke. I have become obsessed with the powerful use of music and unique gothic costumes of this show, but the vocal requirements are very difficult, operatic in style, and something that I do not see in even my most talented group of students' future (small school, small talent pool, and I am already stretched way thin on instruction time).  Do you think it would be appropriate or permissible to apply the stylization of this show, using similar but original compositions of music as underscoring and similar styled costumes, to another one of the many Poe productions, non musicals, that exist out there? 

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 06:48
From: John Perry
Subject: Infringement question

While drawing inspiration from a production is legitimate, Julie Taylor inspires me with everything she does, my concern would be cultural appropriation. JT used traditional African crafts in her costumes and African musicians wrote and performed the music. I would tread lightly in using the same techniques. Masks and puppets are some of our tools of the trade in theatre but to use culturally specific forms without the support of those cultures has the air of white-privilege and colonialism. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but it is an issue I think we need to start considering.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

This is a little bit of a sidebar, but here goes anyway.  :-)

A couple of days ago I saw a post in one of the political forums, and it really got me thinking. Yes there's a fair amount of noise being made about cultural appropriation and similar issues --and apparently JK Rowling has been the recipient of some intense comments -- but, in reality, are the people making the noise the majority or the minority?

I worked with a big community theatre for several years, and was continually amazed at the number of times one person's comment would get people shaking. I kept saying, look, if you're going to go nutzo every time one or two people don't agree with something you're doing, you might as well close up shop. And interestingly, a lot of the people who caused the shaking were volunteers who were only there for one show. But the theatre was so hung up on being PC that they refused to see that by not wanting to offend one person, they often offended several others.

The vast majority of these instances were about little things, and some of them were so minor it was silly. 

In one case there was a young volunteer who thought he was smarter than everyone and always right. The stage manager at the time was actually afraid of him. One day I pointed out that she was giving an awful lot of power to a volunteer, and of course my comment went over like a lead Goodyear blimp.

------------------------------
George F. Ledo
Set designer
www.setdesignandtech.wordpress.com
www.georgefledo.net
http://astore.amazon.com/sdtbookstore-20
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 13:25
From: James Van Leishout
Subject: Infringement question

It is sad in theatre that we cannot explore other cultures because it might seem cultural appropriation. When I was a grad student (oh so many years ago) I directed a children's play based on Native American legends. I am a white director and the writer of the piece was also white.

I wanted to cast as many Native American's as possible, but only a handful showed up. I cast them all regardless of talent level. I had to fill in the rest of the cast with Hispanic and Anglo actors. The lead was an Anglo boy who was an award winning dancer of Native American dances, which he learned as a boy scout.

Today, I am sure I would be advise to choose another show. But when that happens, the stories don't get told. The culture doesn't get appropriated, but neither does it get celebrated. We are burying cultures in cultural sensitivity. Oh we can experience other cultures, but only as a spectator; patrons viewing creatures in a menagerie.

We bring teachers of African American dance to our festivals (Huzzah to Mama Ye Ye), but don't put it on stage because it's cultural appropriation? Beggars logic. Where's the line? Is the use of African or Australian Aboriginal prints for costumes in Seussical cultural appropriation? Japanese influences for sets, props and costumes in the Mikado?

Do we ignore the cultural references in a script? Or choose another script? Do we censor our own inspiration and influences from another culture?

Is there not a way to celebrate other cultures, while still being sensitive. I am so very white, so this next statement may seem out of line. But it seems as if there are too many people just waiting to be offended, so it is easier to just ovoid it altogether and avoid stepping on a land mine of cultural insensitivity.

The sad result is that other cultural become taboo and it is safer to just avoid them.




------------------------------
James Van Leishout
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 08:18
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Absolutely agree with cultural appropriation!  My example/connection was just a poor one. I am actually stuck on the the production of "Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe", written, composed, and directed by Jonathan Christenson, and designed by Bretta Gerecke. I have become obsessed with the powerful use of music and unique gothic costumes of this show, but the vocal requirements are very difficult, operatic in style, and something that I do not see in even my most talented group of students' future (small school, small talent pool, and I am already stretched way thin on instruction time).  Do you think it would be appropriate or permissible to apply the stylization of this show, using similar but original compositions of music as underscoring and similar styled costumes, to another one of the many Poe productions, non musicals, that exist out there? 

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 06:48
From: John Perry
Subject: Infringement question

While drawing inspiration from a production is legitimate, Julie Taylor inspires me with everything she does, my concern would be cultural appropriation. JT used traditional African crafts in her costumes and African musicians wrote and performed the music. I would tread lightly in using the same techniques. Masks and puppets are some of our tools of the trade in theatre but to use culturally specific forms without the support of those cultures has the air of white-privilege and colonialism. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but it is an issue I think we need to start considering.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

As I said in my first posting I didn't want to offend but it seems people have taken offense. Let me address some things posted.
Well, to start off, yes, I think you were wrong to try to represent Native American culture with white people being in total control. But that was a long time ago and we have changed.
Their stories do get told. They get to tell their own stories, not stories filtered through a white man's idea of the culture.
"We bring teachers of African American dance to our festivals (Huzzah to Mama Ye Ye), but don't put it on stage because it's cultural appropriation?" No, it's not cultural appropriation because you had an African American choreographer to guide you. 
The Mikado? You don't see anything insensitive about The Mikado? I love the work but it was written by two English writers, in the midst of English imperialism, and their inspiration was a small group of Japanese brought to London for display. But there are ways to present it w/o being insensitive. Look at the English National Opera/Jonathan Miller production. 
"Do we ignore the cultural references in a script? Or choose another script? Do we censor our own inspiration and influences from another culture?" I find this type of statements pandering and a bit nonsensical. Censor, no. Examine and evaluate, yes. And you don't censor your ideas? At all?
Where do we stop? Is it OK to call Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas? Honor Code Talkers by putting them in front of a portrait of Andrew Jackson who was responsible for the Trail of Tears? 
Arguing against the idea of cultural appropriation says much.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 13:25
From: James Van Leishout
Subject: Infringement question

It is sad in theatre that we cannot explore other cultures because it might seem cultural appropriation. When I was a grad student (oh so many years ago) I directed a children's play based on Native American legends. I am a white director and the writer of the piece was also white.

I wanted to cast as many Native American's as possible, but only a handful showed up. I cast them all regardless of talent level. I had to fill in the rest of the cast with Hispanic and Anglo actors. The lead was an Anglo boy who was an award winning dancer of Native American dances, which he learned as a boy scout.

Today, I am sure I would be advise to choose another show. But when that happens, the stories don't get told. The culture doesn't get appropriated, but neither does it get celebrated. We are burying cultures in cultural sensitivity. Oh we can experience other cultures, but only as a spectator; patrons viewing creatures in a menagerie.

We bring teachers of African American dance to our festivals (Huzzah to Mama Ye Ye), but don't put it on stage because it's cultural appropriation? Beggars logic. Where's the line? Is the use of African or Australian Aboriginal prints for costumes in Seussical cultural appropriation? Japanese influences for sets, props and costumes in the Mikado?

Do we ignore the cultural references in a script? Or choose another script? Do we censor our own inspiration and influences from another culture?

Is there not a way to celebrate other cultures, while still being sensitive. I am so very white, so this next statement may seem out of line. But it seems as if there are too many people just waiting to be offended, so it is easier to just ovoid it altogether and avoid stepping on a land mine of cultural insensitivity.

The sad result is that other cultural become taboo and it is safer to just avoid them.




------------------------------
James Van Leishout
Olympia WA

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 08:18
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Absolutely agree with cultural appropriation!  My example/connection was just a poor one. I am actually stuck on the the production of "Nevermore: The Imaginary Life and Mysterious Death of Edgar Allan Poe", written, composed, and directed by Jonathan Christenson, and designed by Bretta Gerecke. I have become obsessed with the powerful use of music and unique gothic costumes of this show, but the vocal requirements are very difficult, operatic in style, and something that I do not see in even my most talented group of students' future (small school, small talent pool, and I am already stretched way thin on instruction time).  Do you think it would be appropriate or permissible to apply the stylization of this show, using similar but original compositions of music as underscoring and similar styled costumes, to another one of the many Poe productions, non musicals, that exist out there? 

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 06:48
From: John Perry
Subject: Infringement question

While drawing inspiration from a production is legitimate, Julie Taylor inspires me with everything she does, my concern would be cultural appropriation. JT used traditional African crafts in her costumes and African musicians wrote and performed the music. I would tread lightly in using the same techniques. Masks and puppets are some of our tools of the trade in theatre but to use culturally specific forms without the support of those cultures has the air of white-privilege and colonialism. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but it is an issue I think we need to start considering.

------------------------------
John Perry
Retired Theatre Teacher

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

It would not be a copyright infringement or unethical to use inspiration from one show and apply it to another show. Julie Taymor's vision for the Lion King is historic, but she also got that inspiration from her experiences abroad and did not invent that style of puppetry. If you were to do the Lion King in her style, then I would say it would be unethical, but since you are applying it to Aesop's fables (good idea btw) I see no problem (unless you use LK music and Simba makes a cameo). I say do it, especially if you can pull off that style of puppetry. 
   As for cultural appropriation, I don't know.  If this show is for your community, then it would probably be fine. It really depends on the culture and opinion of your community. You would be the best judge of that. Don't let yourself be scared off because 1 in 100 might be slightly offended. 

breaks legs!

-Dwyer

------------------------------
Christopher Dwyer
Head of Drama
St. Vincent Pallotti High School
Laurel, MD 20707
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------

This does not address the original question, but joins the discussion of cultural appropriation.

Each fall, my Theatre II class writes and performs children's theatre for our elementary schools.  We do something that connects to the standards for elementary ELA or Social Studies. 

Thirteen years ago, some of my elementary teacher friends told me that they had a hard time teaching about Cherokee culture, which was specifically on the SCOS at that time.  I started doing research and found James Mooney's Myths of the Cherokee, published in 1902.  Mooney came and lived for a number of years with the Eastern Band of the Cherokee who had managed to avoid moving west in the Trail of Tears.  He wrote down the stories of the elders during a time when most of the Eastern Band were trying to blend in with the non-native populations, living on land that had been purchased by an adopted white son of the Chief, since natives could not purchase property.

I traveled to Cherokee, NC, and visited the museum, Oconaluftee Village, and the arts and crafts store that is a museum of native art in itself.  I went to the annual Pow Wow.  And I talked to anyone and everyone I could, asking what they thought about a high school theatre class of non-natives telling their stories.  Without exception, they were thrilled.  

We chose two origin myths and several stories of the trickster rabbit in Myths of the Cherokee.  We wrote them into a play, and we took them into the schools.  Several years later, we revised the rabbit stories, added a couple of new ones, and took those out to the elementary schools.  At no time did we pretend to be Cherokee.  

And what is the alternative to us telling those stories in our elementary schools?  They do not get told.  Cherokee culture does not speak to children, and the history of that proud people is revealed to children through the pages of a textbook.

------------------------------
C. J. Breland
Asheville High School
Asheville NC
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11-05-2018 18:52
From: Christopher Dwyer
Subject: Infringement question

It would not be a copyright infringement or unethical to use inspiration from one show and apply it to another show. Julie Taymor's vision for the Lion King is historic, but she also got that inspiration from her experiences abroad and did not invent that style of puppetry. If you were to do the Lion King in her style, then I would say it would be unethical, but since you are applying it to Aesop's fables (good idea btw) I see no problem (unless you use LK music and Simba makes a cameo). I say do it, especially if you can pull off that style of puppetry.
   As for cultural appropriation, I don't know.  If this show is for your community, then it would probably be fine. It really depends on the culture and opinion of your community. You would be the best judge of that. Don't let yourself be scared off because 1 in 100 might be slightly offended.

breaks legs!

-Dwyer

------------------------------
Christopher Dwyer
Head of Drama
St. Vincent Pallotti High School
Laurel, MD 20707

Original Message:
Sent: 11-04-2018 12:41
From: Analiese Hamm
Subject: Infringement question

Just wondering something as I am searching out my next show, Would it be considered copyright infringement to mimic the stylization and spectacle typically used for one show but apply it to a different show, a show that may be less popular (or more affordable). Or is this considered inspiration? For example, applying the concept of African style masks and cultural traditional music (as seen in Lion King) to a lesser known show, perhaps like an Aesop's fable collection. This is not the same show/spectacle application my brain is connecting, but a better known example one to start the discussion.

Thanks!

------------------------------
Analiese Hamm
ECHS Drama Director
Statenville GA
------------------------------