Open Forum

 View Only
  • 1.  Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-19-2019 08:54
    Hi all !
    We are looking to replace our 48 channel soundcraft sound board for our 450 seat theatre.
    Does anyone have any recommendations? I guess the boards are digital now ? What is a great board .. but also user friendly ? 
    We know it will be a big investment! 
    Thanks 
    Jackie 
    Dept chair / King school 


  • 2.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-20-2019 09:15

    Jackie, 

    When this question comes up I always reply the same:  This is my opinion and I'm sure there will be other varying opinions.  

    A few years ago we purchased the Behringer X32.  It has more features than we will ever use and there are hundreds of instructional videos on YouTube for students to watch if they're interested.  Yes, there are more expensive boards out there like Allen and Heath but looking at the features compared to cost, the Behringer was right for us.  

    |X32|Behringer|P0ASF

    Musictribe remove preview
    |X32|Behringer|P0ASF
    40-Input, 25-Bus Digital Mixing Console with 32 Programmable MIDAS Preamps, 25 Motorized Faders, Channel LCD's, 32-Channel Audio Interface and iPad/iPhone* Remote Control
    View this on Musictribe >

    It's a big decision.  Good luck.  

     



    ------------------------------
    Chuck Yarmey
    Advisor/Technical Director
    Wyoming Area Drama Club
    Thespian Troupe 4795
    Exeter PA
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-20-2019 13:05
    You're right, it is a big decision with lots of ideas about how to go forward.

    As a preface, I personally own a Behringer portable system, so my opinion does have a certain color to it.  But I like the option of an X32 as a replacement board.  It does have some shortcomings compared to other systems, but fully satisfies all my demands.

    The features I liked on the Yamaha CL5, for example, are beyond what we study in my Master of Theatre Studies program at Southern Oregon University.  I can understand why a sound specialist would recommend that or some other consoles.

    There was a discussion on this last month as well.  it was titled, "recommendations for a mixing console."

    ------------------------------
    Jym Kinney
    Tacoma, Washington
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-21-2019 13:31
    Buy a digital sound board only if you have the personal training and experience and/or other theatre staff to support it (the same goes for high-tech light boards). I'm going to be controversial in this post, I'm sure, but - there's no such thing as a user friendly digital sound board if you don't already know how to run sound and how analog boards work. 

    While I am pleased to see that it would seem more and more high schools are finding the funding to support their theatre facilities with the purchase of 'state-of-the-art' equipment, you also need qualified personnel to train the students in the use of the equipment, and also to provide ongoing mentorship for the students, as well as to operate (or supervise the operation of) it for all the events that use the theatre. 

    I'm a lighting geek – so who am I to talk! - but I also have had many years of experience in high school operations, and I've witnessed too many of my Drama teacher colleagues struggle with digital sound boards.  I've primarily experienced that the need to have an easy to learn and clear to use analog board trumps the need to have the best "technology" when it comes to sound boards. This is because too many high school theatres are one-person operations, with the Drama (read: literature, acting, directing) teacher expected to know all aspects of tech.  So this goes for anyone reading this who doesn't have the personal experience, or other theatre staff, at their school to train and support sound students. 

    The desire to be as state-of-the-art as possible in high schools these days is mostly because there is a school of thought that high schoolers should have the best technology available because they will soon go to a college or get a job where this technology is used. This is true, but not the whole picture. State-of-the-art is not always optimal in a high school theatre setting.  All of the professional sound techs that I've worked with in high school theatres agree - ANALOG BOARDS ARE 'HANDS ON' AND BETTER TEACH THE STUDENT THE CONCEPT OF WHAT SOUND "DOES" AND HOW TO MANIPULATE IT.  As George Ledo recently commented in a post, the students are often too eager to get their hands on the technology without having been provided an education about design theory and WHY they are doing WHAT they are doing.  If education is your goal (as opposed to just needing a sound board op), students get a better 'sound' education on an analog board. Once they have a 'sound' education and have a concept of how analog boards work firmly planted in their brains, they can then go on to figure out a digital board, with all of its hidden multi-step functions. 

    But, as with anything there are pros and cons, and the choice depends on the primary functional use of your high school theatre. SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER WHO WILL BE TRAINING, MENTORING AND OPERATING YOUR EQUIPMENT BEFORE YOU DECIDE ON AN ANALOG OR DIGITAL SOUND BOARD. Consider these questions which are excerpted from my book "High School Theatre Operations":

    • What is the extent of your (the Drama teacher) own training and experience with running sound boards? 
    • Will you or other theatre staff be providing vocational training for students?
    • Will the theatre be staffed by professional technicians?
    • Who will train and mentor the students every year on the sound board?
    • How many students a year will want to learn to be sound technicians?
    • Will students be running the sound board for your shows, and will it always be the same student(s) or will you frequently be training new students?
    • Will the theatre be primarily used by students who come and go every few years?
    • Do a lot of other school groups (choir, band, meetings, variety shows) use the theatre?
    • Are other school groups expected to be able to run their own sound?
    • Who will train and mentor/supervise their students?
    • Will other school groups students be permitted to use the theatre's equipment unsupervised?
    • Will the theatre be rented to outside users? 
    • Who staffs outside events; professional staff, students, or you the Drama teacher?
    • Will outside users be expected to be able to run their own sound? 
    • Will outside users be permitted to use the theatre's equipment unsupervised?
    • Who will be responsible for restoring all of the digital settings back to a Rep (neutral) Setting each time in preparation for the next user (be they school, district or outside)?
    The answers to all of these questions will help determine if you want an analog sound board or a digital sound board. (The same questions apply for when choosing a new light board.) If you are considering purchasing a new sound board, yes, you should purchase a "good" sound (or light) board, but that doesn't always mean digital. Only you know what's right for your situation.

    Bottom line - if you don't know how to run a sound board and don't have someone on your theatre staff who can train and provide ongoing mentorship to your students (sorry Charles, but I'm going to disagree with you…) beware of digital sound boards that have more features than you will ever use and require YouTube tutorials to learn the features that you do need to use.  I've also seen previous comments about digital sound boards, such as "unless you have really advanced tech theatre students" and "The learning curve wasn't too steep" and "If you have someone who can spend time with the students and show them the board" and "There are also plenty of online tutorials on how to use it if you ever get lost." If you are a Drama teacher who does not have the personal training and experience, or other theatre staff at your school, to train and provide ongoing mentorship to students in sound - take these comments as Red Flags. 

    (If you're experienced and totally comfortable with how to operate sound boards, and with teaching and running sound, and/or you have theatre staff who is – ignore everything I've just said, and kudos for providing your students with a vocational education!  Would that all high schools provided students with the staffing for a vocational technical theatre education, instead of expecting Drama teachers to be a one-person-show!  But that's another post…)

    ------------------------------
    Beth Rand, EBMS
    Educational Lighting Designer
    School Theatre Operations Coach

    www.PRESETT.org
    - LIGHTING INSTITUTE FOR THEATRE TEACHERS - ONLINE MINI COURSES (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS ONLINE COURSE FOR TEACHERS (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS BOOKS and COMPLIMENTARY ARTICLE DOWNLOADS
    - THE ECLECTECH SHOPPE

    beth@PRESETT.org
    Westminster, CO
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-22-2019 09:01

    Beth brings up some valid points but I guess I gave an abridged answer or "opinion", as I previously stated. 
    Sure, you have to have the support or the board won't be able to be used properly.  Thankfully, in my case, the company we purchased it from included training to bring the students up to speed with the main setup and features compared to an analog.  

    I just don't see any reason to shy away from technology.  Where we use to have a rack with EQs and effects, they are now built into the board making things easier for the operator.  Almost every high school theater I know of in Pennsylvania runs digital and some are even much more elaborate than what we have.  So I've experienced just the opposite opinions from professionals in the field regarding analog versus digital.  If anything, I think having an RTA display on the screen while you're setting EQs not only visually enhances their understanding of frequencies and how they work, but also makes it much easier to see which frequencies are spiking to help control feedback. 

    I believe in keeping my students current with technology as much as I can.  We aren't funded by the school so everything we purchase is through fund raisers and ticket sales.  But I make sure they have the opportunities to learn and if I can't show them, I bring in people who can.  

    To put it in comparison to lights, should I shy away from moving head lights?  We rent them when I feel we could use them and I've taught our current group of lighting techs how to program them.  Same goes with the soundboard.  

    We actually had a student hired to do live sound by a local company right after graduation because of her proficiency on the board.  

    The reason I mentioned YouTube instructional videos was to reinforce my point this is a very common board and there is endless information out there available should you have an inquisitive student looking to learn more.  I don't leave my students hanging by putting a piece of equipment in front of them and tell them to research how to use it.  

    I do agree you don't want others using the board if they are not familiar with it.  In our case, the school still has their analog board for assemblies or when they need to use 3 or 4 microphones for a choral concert.  But the digital board gets brought out for our shows then gets packed away since it belongs to us.  

    So maybe my situation is unique.  But again, I was just offering an opinion on what is a good board.  That's what this discussion board is filled with.  Opinions. 



    ------------------------------
    Chuck Yarmey
    Advisor/Technical Director
    Wyoming Area Drama Club
    Thespian Troupe 4795
    Exeter PA
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-22-2019 13:00
    Yes, get a digital board! Just being able to save cues will change your sound person's life. Hire someone to set it up for you and spend a few hours going over the features with you and an kids that are interested. There are lots of decent boards for around $3000 (I'm very fond of our Soundcraft Expression 3) and most of them have plenty of video tutorials, so a curious kid can easily learn the basics, and much more.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Buswell
    Drama Teacher
    Peachtree City, GA
    http://mcintoshtheater.org/

    Theater kills ignorance
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 01-22-2019 20:09
    Would that all Drama teachers be as learned in technology as Charles and Kenneth, or if they are not, would that all schools provide teachers for their students who are!  This is the ultimate ideal.  Have a look at the Gold Standard Schools listed on my website at http://www.presett.org/gold-standard-schools.html.  Really this is what it is all about.  All high school theatres in the country should be 'gold standard schools'.  Tech theatre is a CTE and vocational subject, and is not a "performing" art.  Tech students should be given the same opportunities as any CTE student in woodshop, autoshop, culinary arts and so on.  And, btw, according to the Dept of Labor and Industries – no minor should be doing the activities that we do in the theatre unless they are in a bona fide vocational program (aka CTE).  But that's for another post too….

    At the end of the day, it all depends on your own situation.  It's up to each Drama teacher to answer for themselves the questions posed, and decide what's best for you, your technical abilities and the level of support your school provides for you. But at the same time, consider how you too can steer your admin towards becoming a Gold Standard School that provides your tech students with a bona fide vocational education.

    ------------------------------
    Beth Rand, EBMS
    Educational Lighting Designer
    School Theatre Operations Coach

    www.PRESETT.org
    - LIGHTING INSTITUTE FOR THEATRE TEACHERS - ONLINE MINI COURSES (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS ONLINE COURSE FOR TEACHERS (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS BOOKS and COMPLIMENTARY ARTICLE DOWNLOADS
    - THE ECLECTECH SHOPPE

    beth@PRESETT.org
    Westminster, CO
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 02-17-2019 17:24
    I don't know much about sound, but I know someone who does, and she says:

    I would think that since you are looking to replace a 48 channel
    >     board, you need at least 48 inputs on the new one?  The X32 and most
    >     others in that price range offer no more than 32 inputs out of the
    >     box.    Most have a lot less without a stagebox expansion.
    >
    >     Although I feel that an analog board should be used in *teaching* audio,
    >     to run a show, you can't beat a digital board.  Saving show files and
    >     having effects on board are a time and money saver.  Digital boards
    >     have a definite learning curve, though.  The friendliest board I've
    >     worked with in that price range is the Allen & Heath SQ.  Though even
    >   the 7 only has 32 mic inputs.  If you don't need a full 48 channels, I highly recommend one of the SQ series.

    Angie Dickinson Mickle
    Audio Production adviser
    Denver School of the Arts
    www.avocadoproductions.com

    ------------------------------
    Beth Rand, EBMS
    Educational Lighting Designer
    School Theatre Operations Coach

    www.PRESETT.org
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS BOOKS and COMPLIMENTARY ARTICLE DOWNLOADS (http://www.presett.org/helpful-books.html)
    - LIGHTING INSTITUTE FOR THEATRE TEACHERS - ONLINE MINI COURSES (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - HIGH SCHOOL THEATRE OPERATIONS ONLINE COURSE FOR TEACHERS (ask for complimentary syllabus)
    - THE ECLECTECH SHOPPE (http://www.presett.org/eclectech.html)

    beth@PRESETT.org
    Westminster, CO
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 03-06-2019 14:19
    I'll jump in and say that the Midas version of the Behringer X32 is worth the little extra cost. The M32 will cost you about $1000 more but it is worth it. The faders are better, the layout is better, the screen is easier to read and the preamps are geniune Midas preamps (some of the best in the world), not just "Designed by Midas".

    Unless you just have to have 48 channels this is a great option.

    And for those that say that you should only teach on an analog board I would say that I think that you should teach on what the kids may be working on in the future. By the time a High School student is working in the industry as an A1 there will be very few analog consoles left. Digital boards are not that difficult to use and there are plenty of training opportunities for those willing to learn.

    Just my .02.

    ------------------------------
    Ken Summerall
    Lexington SC
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Sound board replacement !

    Posted 03-06-2019 16:09

    I'm going to recommend that whatever you budget for, be sure to include time and money (and eve travel if necessary) to get the proper training for the device.  Getting a new toy and not knowing how to use it and teach it is a poor investment.  Administrators and purchasing agents need to understand that it's not just a 'box-sale'.

    Also, modern control boards (sound, light, video) are highly complex computers and need a clean reliable power source, so be sure to get a high quality UPS to protect the device against power line disturbances (and budget for replacing the batteries ever two years!).

    One major consideration that is often overlooked is the visual distraction that all the LED's and data monitors present to the audience if the mixer is located out in the seating area (WHERE IT SHOULD BE!).  Look at the ability to control the brightness of all the blinkin' lights! And try to set your control screen brightness down to a non-blinding level, too!



    ------------------------------
    Erich Friend
    Theatre Consultant
    Teqniqal Systems
    ------------------------------