Open Forum

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

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Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
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Define "fun".

Yes, students need to be told when they are not singing correctly. It's the way you tell them that's important.

I am so against telling a student to "fake it" during performance that I can't describe the feelings it brings up in me. Many professional singers and actors have stories of them being told "just fake it" when singing in a group.

If a student is not on pitch they usually can't hear themselves. They need to sing louder so they can hear their voice. One technique I used in elementary music was to take a hose from a swimming pool pump. The student put it up to one ear and sang in the other end. This way they could hear the choir and hear themselves and they could match the pitches.

All students can sing.

-------------------------------------------
John Perry
Drama Instructor
Atherton High School
Louisville KY
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

There is an inexpensive product out there, called "HearFones" that is great for students who have trouble hearing themselves.  It works like the hose idea, channeling your voice directly to your ear but isn't so embarassing.  You can find it on Amazon, etc.  Give it a try.
-------------------------------------------
Rick Osann
Theatre Teacher
Standish ME
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2014 07:25
From: John Perry
Subject: Choir

Define "fun".

Yes, students need to be told when they are not singing correctly. It's the way you tell them that's important.

I am so against telling a student to "fake it" during performance that I can't describe the feelings it brings up in me. Many professional singers and actors have stories of them being told "just fake it" when singing in a group.

If a student is not on pitch they usually can't hear themselves. They need to sing louder so they can hear their voice. One technique I used in elementary music was to take a hose from a swimming pool pump. The student put it up to one ear and sang in the other end. This way they could hear the choir and hear themselves and they could match the pitches.

All students can sing.

-------------------------------------------
John Perry
Drama Instructor
Atherton High School
Louisville KY
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

Hi,

I am a choir person in addition to teaching technical theatre. Choir should be fun, but better if that fun is derived from a satisfying experience based on effort and accomplishment.

Students should be encouraged to be self monitoring in regard to pitch, range and volume, often however, they simply don't hear that they are wrong. At the middle school level, puberty (especially for the boys) can wreak havoc on their range and pitch, girls too suffer the effects of this but not as noticeably. With girls, often they are often trying to imitate their favorite pop/country, etc. singer and more often than not, that singer's range and sound are inappropriate for their age. These imitations can cause them to push, creating tension and killing their sound (true vocal quality) and pitch.

In regard to asking them not to sing (if they hear it or if you do) can solve a problem for the immediate need but doesn't help them grow as a singer. At this age there has to be an acceptance of their vocal limitations and careful selection of shows. MTI's Jr. shows are well suited to younger voices both in range and complexity.

If a student just can't sing, don't cast them or put them in a position where they can find some success and you can limit the "damage". As much as we would like perfection, this is an educational endeavor.

Best Wishes,

Dana  



-------------------------------------------
Dana Taylor
MSD of Mt. Vernon
Evansville IN
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

Spent 11 years teaching Middle School Choir before transitioning to Theatre.  I agree with John - define "fun".  

My program had a blend of, what I would call, legit material and easier perhaps more contemporary music.  But all music was approached with the same intent - to download technique, to help them understand the craft and to grow them as artists.  

One suggestion for performance pieces - it takes some time, but it's well worth it!  Have each singer sing for you and determine their range.  Sometimes this may only be a few notes - especially as voices change.  Then look at the piece of music.  Where are those notes?  Have the student highlight the notes they can sing cleanly in that piece. That may mean they sing a few notes on the alto line, a few on the soprano line, a few on the bass line and rest when there are no notes they can reach.  (Practice CDs can help them.)  Your approach to this will make or break it - the student will either feel they are being singled out because they can't sing or they will understand that they are maximizing their abilities for the good of the ensemble while they continue to work and grow their personal skill set.

You will then need to include non performance pieces that are strategic in developing the groups ranges and vocal skills. 

Bottom line in my opinion - especially for Middle School performers - they need to be rock solid in a performance situation and then have those "learning" moments in the safety of the classroom.

Message me if I can help you in any way!
Amy


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Amy Learn
Ballwin MO
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

Hi Connie,

I'm actually a music teacher that teaches drama on the side. I'm sure you can find a wealth of information on your questions at choralnet.org. It is a great site. From my perspective, here are my thoughts to your questions:

1) Choir will be fun if standards are set and the kids are challenged.
2) Issues around vocal tone and pitch production can be fixed, even among the "worst" singers. It requires proper training and rehearsal technique. There are many things to consider if a vocal part gets too high or too low.  A student should never be singing outside of their range (which is especially difficult for middle school boys) and can damage the vocal folds. Regardless, it is never "ok" to fake it. They should be setting goals towards a standard - as long as they are trying their best and working on proper singing then it's ok.
3)Anybody can sing. If someone can tell who's voice is on the other side of a phone conversation they have pitch and tone recognition; nobody is really tone deaf. So, if a student is not producing their part, they need to be coached and practice. Again, choralnet will be a great resource for you.

-------------------------------------------
Daniel Dewig
Teacher
St. Francis Central Coast Catholic High School
WATSONVILLE CA
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

1) I preempt most rehearsal processes (choral and theatrical) with the statement that the "fun" happens through and sometimes after the work. Infusing humor even when the work is difficult helps a lot, but that doesn't mean they don't work their tails off!
2) & 3) Someone needs to help them adjust, or they will be the next American Idol "bad" example, swearing that everyone told them they were a wonderful singer. It takes practice, and success can be found by helping students realize their weakness and helping them improve with practice.The attached picture is of a well-worn item purchased at a music store years ago. I have made great use of it with my "non-singing" actors as a first step. They just couldn't hear themselves internally and this allowed them to make the connection. In time, singing in-tune becomes more of a reality.(No product promotion intended--you can make your own with PVC pipe and 2 L connectors).


-------------------------------------------
Suzanne Livesay
Theatre Dept Chair
Tampa FL
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2014 10:46
From: Daniel Dewig
Subject: Choir

Hi Connie,

I'm actually a music teacher that teaches drama on the side. I'm sure you can find a wealth of information on your questions at choralnet.org. It is a great site. From my perspective, here are my thoughts to your questions:

1) Choir will be fun if standards are set and the kids are challenged.
2) Issues around vocal tone and pitch production can be fixed, even among the "worst" singers. It requires proper training and rehearsal technique. There are many things to consider if a vocal part gets too high or too low.  A student should never be singing outside of their range (which is especially difficult for middle school boys) and can damage the vocal folds. Regardless, it is never "ok" to fake it. They should be setting goals towards a standard - as long as they are trying their best and working on proper singing then it's ok.
3)Anybody can sing. If someone can tell who's voice is on the other side of a phone conversation they have pitch and tone recognition; nobody is really tone deaf. So, if a student is not producing their part, they need to be coached and practice. Again, choralnet will be a great resource for you.

-------------------------------------------
Daniel Dewig
Teacher
St. Francis Central Coast Catholic High School
WATSONVILLE CA
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

You might also take an old telephone receiver (remember those?), take out the guts and have them sing into it and they will be able to hear themselves.

 

-------------------------------------------
John Perry
Drama Instructor
Atherton High School
Louisville KY
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-16-2014 13:23
From: Suzanne Livesay
Subject: Choir

1) I preempt most rehearsal processes (choral and theatrical) with the statement that the "fun" happens through and sometimes after the work. Infusing humor even when the work is difficult helps a lot, but that doesn't mean they don't work their tails off!
2) & 3) Someone needs to help them adjust, or they will be the next American Idol "bad" example, swearing that everyone told them they were a wonderful singer. It takes practice, and success can be found by helping students realize their weakness and helping them improve with practice.The attached picture is of a well-worn item purchased at a music store years ago. I have made great use of it with my "non-singing" actors as a first step. They just couldn't hear themselves internally and this allowed them to make the connection. In time, singing in-tune becomes more of a reality.(No product promotion intended--you can make your own with PVC pipe and 2 L connectors).


-------------------------------------------
Suzanne Livesay
Theatre Dept Chair
Tampa FL
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-11-2014 10:46
From: Daniel Dewig
Subject: Choir

Hi Connie,

I'm actually a music teacher that teaches drama on the side. I'm sure you can find a wealth of information on your questions at choralnet.org. It is a great site. From my perspective, here are my thoughts to your questions:

1) Choir will be fun if standards are set and the kids are challenged.
2) Issues around vocal tone and pitch production can be fixed, even among the "worst" singers. It requires proper training and rehearsal technique. There are many things to consider if a vocal part gets too high or too low.  A student should never be singing outside of their range (which is especially difficult for middle school boys) and can damage the vocal folds. Regardless, it is never "ok" to fake it. They should be setting goals towards a standard - as long as they are trying their best and working on proper singing then it's ok.
3)Anybody can sing. If someone can tell who's voice is on the other side of a phone conversation they have pitch and tone recognition; nobody is really tone deaf. So, if a student is not producing their part, they need to be coached and practice. Again, choralnet will be a great resource for you.

-------------------------------------------
Daniel Dewig
Teacher
St. Francis Central Coast Catholic High School
WATSONVILLE CA
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------

Another method of practicing at home is to take the sheet music and play one note at a time over and over until they can hear that they are on pitch, then move to the next note playing over and over.  When they have a line of lyric, they sing that line slowly and repeatedly.  Ask them to practice every night.  I've seen lots of kids who were not able to sing for years.  That doesn't mean they should give up.  Obviously, they would not have taken choir if they did not want to sing.  
A second solution for some students at performance time is to have a small solo that they speak. 




-------------------------------------------
Vicki Bartholomew
Playwright
Sherwood OR
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 12-10-2014 19:26
From: Connie Sandoz
Subject: Choir

Hello!
I know this is mainly a theatre related site, however I'm sure some of you are involved with vocals or choir, too.
This is the first year for middle school choir and I have some questions:
1. Should choir always be "fun"?
2. Is it right to tell students that if they can tell that they're not on key, or if it gets too high or low, to just fake it?
3. If students can't sing at all, should they be told to fake it during a performance or should they just sing out of key, thus causing a poor performance?

Any thoughts???
Thank you!

-------------------------------------------
Connie Sandoz
Theatre Director
Henderson NV
-------------------------------------------